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Poster: light into ashes Date: Sep 6, 2010 1:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

...as in, "back of the balcony"...

I was listening to the 12/11/72 AUD that came out a little while ago, a balcony recording from Winterland. It sounds pretty nice, actually - not that it'll make anyone throw away their SBDs - it's still a boomy 1972 audience tape, after all! Weir is rather loud in the mix. And (though it's needless to say this for a '72 show) the Dead play really well! A couple highlights are the ends of He's Gone and Mississippi Half-Step, which go the extra mile.

Anyway, one reason I bring it up is because the Stella Blue has one of those incidents we were talking about a little while ago - how on 2/18/71, the audience cheers as soon as the band starts Wharf Rat, even though they've never heard it.
Same thing happens here - the MOMENT Garcia starts Stella Blue after that long morose Dark Star, the audience goes wild with applause - it's even more apparent on this AUD tape than it was on the SBD. Now few people in Dec '72 would even have heard Stella Blue yet, so that's not what they're excited about. It's a case where the audience is so in the moment, being taken through the depths of darkness in Dark Star - the instant the band lets up & changes direction, everyone kind of explodes with relief. We actually hear it the wrong way around - it's not "oh, here's a song", but more like "wow, they just turned on a dime! How'd they do that?"

By the way, the recent 2/13/70 AUD tape that's up on the Archive is also a pretty good-sounding tape for a 1970 Fillmore East recording. Not that anyone's going to prefer it over the excellent SBD! It's a shame the taper ran out of tape (apparently) while the band was still in their warmup set...it would be very nice to hear an AUD of that second set, if one existed.

While I'm on the subject of audience tapes - I FINALLY found a quote I'd been looking for. I knew one of the Dead, somewhere, had talked about 'room-taping' their winter '68 shows...but could never remember who or where...
It was Garcia, in a 1968 radio documentary on the Dead:
"We recorded some of those shows using an 8-track machine for the band, and then using a 4-track machine for the room, so that we had 4 tracks of the room, various parts of the perspective of the room...one corner over here, one corner over here, one in the middle, done lots of different places... In mastering, we had the 8-track and the 4-track playing simultaneously. We'd mix them together and cross-fade them, so as to get partly the sound of the band, partly the sound of the hall, reverberating...it gives you a sense of enfolding space."
So that's where the "audience" 4-tracks of those March '68 Carousel shows come from.

The transcript of the documentary is here -
http://www.vidkid.com/GDdochome.html

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Poster: Skobud Date: Sep 6, 2010 4:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

What do you have against MOTB?

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Poster: smokinchains Date: Sep 7, 2010 6:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

I think the audience is simply applauding the jam. Thank you Grateful Dead, we appreciate the nice freak-out jam!

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Poster: Capt. Cook Date: Sep 6, 2010 4:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

Its a very real fact that many people are turned off by the long jams! Your words - the MOMENT Garcia starts Stella Blue after that long morose Dark Star, the audience goes wild with applause - really support something I've felt for years and that is most common listeners of the GD lose interest in the long exploritory jams and space and wait around patiently for the "Real Songs" to come about... Wanna piss off your girlfriend at a party, put on a 20 minute drums>space - However, pull out a blistering Scarlet>Fire and away we go dancing!!!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 6, 2010 10:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

Appropos of my usual inane contributions, but I spent many a "down time" in the Balcony of Winterland...nice place to restup, cuddle, etc...it was on the very back row that one still needed ear plugs to survive Pete Sears and his distorted and overly loud bass. Perhaps much more than one would expect, though I can't recall any acoustics wize heads commenting on it, the Balcony was not bad, sound wise...you could do anything there largely free of hassle in the mid 70s when security was taking a big leap forward.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Sep 6, 2010 5:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

Nice work, but I think you are reading too much into this.

Deadheads are an exuberant bunch. They will cheer for anything, good or bad. A nice jam or flubbed lyrics.

If Jer expelled an audible wet fart on stage, the crowd would go wild...

This post was modified by Cliff Hucker on 2010-09-07 00:36:18

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Poster: Stealz Date: Sep 6, 2010 6:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

Your posts continue to enlighten light into ashes.

It's no wonder you are among the revered around here, what with your careful, insightful, and prudent comments.

Thank you for being around.

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Poster: DeadRed1971 Date: Sep 6, 2010 5:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

"Now few people in Dec '72 would even have heard Stella Blue yet, so that's not what they're excited about."


Didn't they play it the night before at Winterland as well? Considering they probably had a lot of the same people there as the previous night, they might have been excited to hear it again.

http://www.archive.org/details/gd72-12-10.sbd.gorinsky.5801.sbeok.shnf

This post was modified by DeadRed1971 on 2010-09-07 00:14:47

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Poster: Jim F Date: Sep 8, 2010 1:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

I've always interpreted it much more simply, that after a big jam, the audience-whether they knew the song or not-recognized that what they'd been playing is now over and now it's onto something else, and they were just applauding the previous effort. It's half and half maybe, applauding both for the previous long jam, as well as the recognition of something else.

So many other things in this thread one could express opinions on, but I'm keeping it simple tonight.

This post was modified by Jim F on 2010-09-08 08:15:02

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Sep 6, 2010 7:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

Hmm....this was just a bit of randomness on my part, but there's quite a range of interesting comments here...
Was the audience anxiously waiting for that dreadful long Star to finish? Were they ready to cheer for anything? ("Hooray, it's over!") Did most of them know Stella already?
I'll stick with my original interpretation though, it makes the most sense to me. I believe that as of '72, your typical SF Dead audience DID like those long Stars (one sign - do you hear anybody talking?) - and they wouldn't recognize Stella just from the first chord. They probably would applaud for anything, but you can kind of tell when they're REALLY excited about something.
Then again, maybe just some naked chick ran onstage.

And, my little joke about "MOTB" aside, I'm thrilled that they've been putting out a bunch of new sources that wouldn't meet their original quality standards.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 7, 2010 6:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

Can't comment on 72; but I think we must consider Cap-n Cooks point esp in light of "the %" issue we've discussed prior (in the same spirit: how many at each show really knew the DEAD's jamming? I mean really knew it?).

By 74, there were lots of times that during jams it was quiet, and while looking around, it wasn't a scene of quiet reverence as I can attest. It was shear and utter boredom. Only when it was withing 3 songs of the close, and esp energetic, would everyone be engaged...most of the 72 jams, esp long DSs, I tend to think would be in this "yawn" category.

Capn's right: at the time, I absolutely deplored anything more than a five min song, and the thirty or so folks that I went to from 74-82, not a SINGLE one enjoyed them...even the HS band that played all DEAD tunes, and jammed alot, ironically, didn't think much of them..."endless noodling"...

I only turned to enjoy the jams when I arrived here...Funny thing: while mailing disks to people from that period, many have commented on "hey...why don't you send more regular songs?" (71 comes in handy).

I really do believe few at the time cared much about long jams unless they were so energetic you had to dance, or bizarre feedback esque so that you couldn't take your eyes/ears away.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Sep 7, 2010 8:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

Well now, that's interesting... I hadn't thought that about early '70s audiences before.
I assumed that the Dead fans who didn't like long jams were an '80s phenomenon... I took it for granted that anyone going to a show in the early '70s would be aware that they were potentially facing at least one very long, spacy jam... (A live album or two would've warned them, at least.) I even naively thought that most of them might even be looking FORWARD to it.
So it's news to hear that the rapt silence & bursts of applause in the Dark Stars we hear on early audience tapes are the result of "sheer & utter boredom"...
And I wonder how early this disdain for jams started among Dead audiences? After Skullfuck? After Workingman's Dead? Heck, were people at the Fillmore in Feb '69 moaning, "God, why don't they finish this crap and play some more blues?"

Well, at this late date, it's not like we can take a poll of the folks who were there. I know audiences aren't solid blocks of raving fans, and the fans of the Dead then (like those today) would've seen them for many different reasons - liking jams perhaps not even a primary one - and few could've been as familiar with the Dead as we are now. And I know my own preferences are out of whack with most people's.
But it's still sad to hear that your average 1972 audience would've been yawning through those Dark Stars, waiting for it to be over with.
Helps me understand why Weir said he felt like they were losing their audience with all those long jams in '74...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 7, 2010 1:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

Strangely, I think the DEAD fans are as diverse over the eras, but esp early on, as you imply...again, to beat the DEAD horse, many of those 69 era fans were in the minority by the time I was going in 74-76, just to focus on the first couple of years.

And though we had Live Dead, of course, by far the most played albums were S&R, AmBe and Work....meaning, in prep for a concert, after concert tape sharing parties, etc.

As further indicators, we always cut jams if needed to make two cassettes, and always "flipped" during jams...subtle, but revealing I think. Today, I NEVER cut jams, and eliminate songs like H2H and M&MU to make it "fit" if that's a concern for someone I am mailing something to...

Now, I would venture to say that the bias of the folks that I knew is that though we were diehard HEADs, we were the perhaps more cerebral (don't throw up yet) of those present in that we all finished HS, all had jobs, all went to college, etc., etc. A far cry from many Haight kids on the street. Not sure this makes a difference, but if someone wants to say "Tell is an oddball, and so were his so called friends" they may have a point...we were all middle class kids living primarily in the East Bay.

So, take it for what it's worth. None of us were twirlers, real tour freaks (as we discussed with ducats etc.).

But again, ten or so of us were deeply involved in a DEAD cover band, so there were many with serious musical interests.

This is going to sound so self-serving, but we felt that the jams of 68 and 69, like Live Dead, simply weren't being provided to us in the mid 70s...at best we got S&R style jams (NFA--GDTRFB; CCS--IKYR; etc), but "space" and long DSs of 72/73, weren't the same (I didn't hear those first hand, but many of the thirty had). That's why when I got here, and found so much of 68-69 it was such a mindblowing experience in which I thought "WTF?! looked what we missed!".

So, ironically, now I'd largely skip the short songs that I lived for "in the day".

And as for your pt, elb, I see what you're getting at, but for us, any coherence was grasped at...it could be a slow song, anything--but you instantly recognized, "here we go!" to something other than something relatively boring.

Finally, for huge 72 fans, do realize that besides the bias I admitted above about our "group", we didn't hear those kind of DSs in 75, 76, 79...we heard jams/space that clearly appeared to be an "energy saving" effort by the boys, rather than a highly demanding, high energy effort of at least those from 69 in which they are all working hard at it...?

This post was modified by William Tell on 2010-09-07 20:41:31

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Sep 7, 2010 12:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

if the bored phenomena explains the Wharf Rat applause from 2-18-71 then it ain't after skullfuck.

I'm not sure i buy it completely and tend to think that something happened inside the venue that was associated with the transition to Stella or Wharf Rat on those nights. I might buy the "we're bored, thank god thats over" applause if the transition was to Sugar Mags or one of the more "pop" sounding dancing tunes of the time, but Stella Blue and Wharf Rat? Not exactly tunes to get one's feet tapping.

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Poster: Skobud Date: Sep 7, 2010 8:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

Anyone else here felt like they BARELY made it through a good Space while dosed??? Same applies here imo. This is something no amount of reading can explain. Emotionally delicate state induced by a psychadelic journey being played out on stage all the while fueled by chemistry. They didnt talk cause they couldnt, they cheered cause it was over and the transition was mind blowing. Its all part of the experience. The scientific method does not apply to the vibe of the crowd. You have to feel it...OK, thats my take.

EDIT: I just read WT's post and I don't think people were yawning or whatever during the jams....Why then would they freak out so bad when this 33 min DS ended? I think the opposite was true. Of course I was not there at the time, but there are so many accounts of classic shows with very long DS and others that were described as brilliant. I am choosing not to believe that people were sitting around bored during the performance of Dark Star during 12/11/1972. This seems insane to me.

This post was modified by Skobud on 2010-09-07 15:45:18

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Sep 7, 2010 8:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

I have had that hairy space microdot experience also Skobud . Usually when I went to shows by myself , which I liked doing from time to time or under last minute cancellations . Being alone brought a certain edge to the music .

Skobud , I believe WT . There is a generational gap in some aspects to this GD world . One would think so with a 30 year career . I do not know when your time was , but as someone mentioned recently , the '87 - '95 crowd ( that's me ! ) would have clapped if JG ripped a long one into the mike . That actually is kinda funny . I would have gone nuts throughout any DS , and the less they sang and more they jammed made me a happy camper .

It could be the same old song , with what you want is what someone else already had . And maybe vice versa . There's a song like that... ;)

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Poster: Skobud Date: Sep 7, 2010 9:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

Im the same generation as you, and when I say I find it crazy that people were bored it is a reflection of my time I suppose. Still though, bored? Im not doubting some were, but my experience was much different. I guess I would say i cant relate to that type of a feeling at a show.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Sep 7, 2010 10:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

Really interesting comments. The era comparisons are always fascinating to me. But I think we have to remember that everyone was having different experiences, no matter the era. One person might be bored during a space or long DS, another might be having intense reflections, another might be focusing on the music and aware of the turn-on-the-dime aspect ... as many reasons to cheer as there were people.

I can see people cheering, too, cuz they're lemmings. Cheers are catching. Some rather-more-attentive people cheer because of something in the music (turning on a dime, hearing Stella Blue, a feeling of release after an intense personal experience during a long DS); their less aware friends cheer cuz everyone is cheering.

But I do have a hard time thinking of people cheering just cuz they're glad a song is over. Even if they're bored, and are wondering what the heck is up with this band, would they cheer for that reason? "Yee hah, the noodling is over! Let's go NUTS!" Hmmm. Seems unlikely. To me, anyway.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 7, 2010 1:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

I think skobud and micah, following on LiA's implied "diff in eras" FANWISE, are on the right track...imagine you've brought three 'newbies', and you are looking at their faces during space in 76...

Trust me, you cheered, and so did they when it ended.

My wife was one that reluctantly went and she is a die hard, "anything over five minutes?! PLLEEEASSE!".

Finally, on the "good fight" I've spoken of, there were actually three groups. "Us", the good guys that defended the DEAD on all levels; "them", the bad guys that said LedZep was tops and we were nuts (the thread a while back?).

But, there was another small group: I had at least a dozen people say to me at parties and debates (we really did this a lot; more than I do here...har, but truly) play the moderator by saying: "look, I'll grant you M&MU is a GREAT song, but twenty minutes of DS?!? you've got to be kidding me...! Anyone can do that...it's just noise"

And they were talking about OUR beloved DS from LiveDead!

Shudder...

Anyhow, my pt here and above is that we mid70s folks were largely S&R heads...born and raised on AmBe and Work, and thinking that LiveDead was great BUT it wasn't being played anymore...the Band had moved on, and so did we.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Sep 7, 2010 2:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

WT , Were you nearby when CGBG's exploded ( musically ) ?
'Punk' music has a lot of spaces between Television , Patti Smith ( for you BD ), Richard H & t VDoids , Talking Heads , and Blondie .

How many Debbie Harry crushes out there men of a certain age ?

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Sep 7, 2010 3:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

Patti Smith is the real deal... Debbie Harry was just more "dance" music (read "disco") which we HATED.

More to WT's point: the mid to late 70's saw an explosion of rock bands heading into the metal, hair band era. In the midwest we could largely ignore the CBGB scene in NY - there was a lot of rock'n roll out there. Hanging on to the Dead was an act of true faith, especially if a huge chunk of the show was filler like Space and Drums. - ditto - you cheered when it ended.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 7, 2010 4:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

Thanks UJ and micah, for "believing me"...har, har, but seriously. I know it sounds contra to my "68 era love affair" (ie, Jam Central), but I really have reversed myself from short songs of the 70s to extended high energy jams of the 68-69 era.

And, to sko/LiA/ARose, of course, there's a bit of apples and oranges here. Again, we weren't hearing the 72 DSs. We were hearing a new kind of jam...the higher energy ones of familiar sorts like, again, NFA, IKYR, GDTRFB, etc., or even OOne/M&MU, were well enough liked because they were extended songs...but the newer addition of space/drums/rhydevils/etc was altogether different. UJ hit the nail I was hammering on the head: seemed like filler, breaktime to the band and to us...

But any long jam with an extended lull, insect noise element (maybe a PITB or EotWor, or Bl4Allah) would be somewhat dulling to the senses for us...my view now is that an extended Eleven would not have been, nor would one of the "named" jams of 69-70 DSs that in essence, sound like a song so to speak. But we weren't hearing alot of that kind of jamming...from 74-82 anyhow.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Sep 7, 2010 7:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

One of the things I thought upon reading all this is that seeing the band in the time you're talking about, WT, must have been a different experience -- not just musically, but in terms of expectations -- from seeing them later.

By the late 80s, a lot of the folks would, I imagine, have been going to see "THE DEAD" in a defined way: a legendary, even mythic band, probably having heard a ton of tapes, gotten tips from friends, etc. Sure, in those huge stadiums, there might have been a lot of drunken twits expecting something different. But the Dead had also become THE DEAD. Written in tie-dyed colors.

I'm thinking that in WT's "era," what the Dead "meant" wasn't quite as defined in the audience's mind. If this makes sense, the idea of "what are they doing now that's relevant?" would have been more of an issue. You COULD be bored by long DS jams or the just-emerging space concept because it wasn't already iconic. I'm projecting back a bit, perhaps; I came in between WT and micah, in that I "got on the bus" in '78, when the Dead weren't iconic, exactly -- more of a niche/cult taste -- but when I first saw them, there was also a sense of them changing and producing things that were new. The band itself wasn't "new," and it wasn't SF so there was no live argument about "best SF bands," but there was still a kind of edginess or relevance that hadn't yet been replaced by expectation and memory. If that makes sense. So I think maybe I have a sense of what WT means.

(Though I still say folks don't clap cuz it's over, LOL. But then, I wasn't there. Maybe in WT's section of the hall, that's what they were doing :-) )

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Sep 7, 2010 7:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?/Iconic

I think much of what you write is spot on , AR .
I saw touring /GD as the last chance to catch the circus before the 'frontier' closed completely . The GD were a huge funky edifice begging me to explore and find some treats , or to get my wallet and face stolen .
GD was a heavy machine the last 1/3 of their career . They effected cities . The energy level was nuts in the scene . I remember saying many times to myself , "Don't forget this ."
It looked real different in the movie Sunshine Daydream . I don't think the phrase ".... they are the only one's who do what they do " had as much meaning in the 70's . You still had great music being made all over the place . Not so much by the late 80's . GD were the only ones . Iconic .

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Sep 7, 2010 8:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?/Iconic

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Sep 7, 2010 11:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?/Iconic

LOL. I had some brilliant comment here. But I put in that little carrot thing at the start to quote Micah, and then it all evaporates into ... hot air, I guess. Now of course I can't remember it. But I'll try to see if my carrot thingy theory is correct. If there's a big blank afterwards, it is. Testing, testing ...

Edit: Test successful. I put the carrot thingy in it and it came up blank. I think I may be discovering html or something :-)

This post was modified by AltheaRose on 2010-09-08 06:13:30

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Sep 7, 2010 11:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?/Iconic

You are in the internet , AR
not on it
must be KTM

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 8, 2010 5:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?/Iconic

I think that's a big part of it, AUD variation.

Oh, and I think I've mis-stated, etc...I am saying that they are clapping BECAUSE they recognize a coherent tune, NOT because the incoherence is ending...

Subtle diff, I think?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 7, 2010 3:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

I was paying NO attn; seriously...completely "deadicated" thru 70s and early 80s...only yrs later did I open up to other such folk.

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Poster: vapors Date: Sep 6, 2010 10:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: MOTB...or is that BOTB?

My first time with this show, so listening to this Dark Star, one observation is: man that Billy is one hell of a drummer. Tried the soundboard first, (and found the Stella doesn’t suffer the cut the recently added aud does.)
Appears pretty basic to me – they applaud at the beginning of Dark Star, they applaud at the end. Seems like it would be hard not to. But for the sake of argument – Stella had been played for six months at this point; granted not in SF. Maybe it was the anticipation of hearing this song for the first time, having either heard reports of, or been in attendance the previous evening.
Regardless of the applause factor, I extend my hearty thanks for one great listening session, and bringing me to contemplate the other stuff you mention in your post. And your sense of humor :)

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